The usual first suggestion in Infinity is to use Cover. That isn't a good suggestion because Cover is more used offensively than defensively. I know that is counter-intuitive, which I encompass in the 3 Maxims post. The safest position is to be in Total Cover aka out of Line of Fire entirely. This does not guarantee safety, as there are Speculative Fire attacks, Smart Missile Launchers, or just a Airborne Deployment/Infiltration possibility in each faction that can have detrimental effects on the health of your troops.
If you wish to contest a lane, that model is being put to risk. You should be aware of the possibility that that model may die. Total Cover is the safest position. This, coincidentally, is where you'll wish to place your Impetuous units. Impetuous models never benefit from Cover so they should be hidden when they're not running down the field for a kill. Who you should leave out or hide in Cover is best by understanding a model's role.
You can't entirely stop your opponent from gaining LoF to one of your models. The most obvious way to not die is to Shoot back. Hopefully they attack within a +3 Range Band but if they're devious, it is unlikely. Furthermore, Camouflage often follows up with Surprise Shot, providing a minimum of -6 against a BS Attack. This is when you're going to want to use Dodge or a Smoke Grenade to stop attacks, as the enemy's Mimetism, TO Camouflage, ODD and Cover do not apply to your stat in a Face-to-Face roll (FtF). Smoke Grenades, because they block LoF, are used to oppose ranged attacks unless the attacker is using MSV2+ to see through the Smoke. Most units don't have Smoke, let's focus on Engage and Dodge.
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| Hyperdynamic PanO Magister Knights |
Has Hyperdynamics L1/2/3 +3/+6/+9
Is a Motorcycle -3
Is a Remotes -3
Is a TAGs -6
Target of Surprise Shot -3
Lack LoF to Attacker -3
Deployable Weapon Detonation -3
First, understand that Engage and Dodge are three separate things. My math is right on that one, just hold on a moment.
Engage is a Common Short Skill requiring LoF that allows a model in the Reactive Turn to move 2" into base contact with an enemy. If successful, your opponent decides where your Engaging model is placed. This can be used to evade all incoming attacks as long as your beat the FtF. Kinematika enlarges this 2" radius by an inch per level. Kinematika 2 models would be able to Engage models within 4". Kinematika requires LoF. Dodge and Change Facing have exceptions that allow their usage without LoF but for a model to be able to use the Kinematika skill, LoF is mandatory.
Dodge is two separate skills. Dodge on the Active Turn is a Common Skill that can evade all incoming attacks. Dodge on the Reactive Turn is a Common Skill that evades all incoming attacks and has a model move 2" - which Kinematika's distance does improve. Why would you ever Dodge on the Active Turn? Hyperdynamics to avoid attacks is a good reason, but another is you might have messed up and had more AROs than you expected be declared. Better to avoid all the unexpected attacks than try to get lucky with a shoot out.
These modifiers stack. This means if a REM lacks LoF to the Attacker, they have a -6. If this same REM somehow had Hyperdynamics 2 (which no profile currently exists with this), the PH roll would be made with +0 in a FtF against the Attack. A Deployable Weapon would further add a -3 penalty to either situation. Lacking LoF is a severe problem, which is why Change Facing, Alert! and Warning! exist.
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| Hyperdynamic Dodge Prone |
Alert! is another common skill in which case a model that has LoF to an enemy on the Reactive Turn may allow any number of your models to Change Facing. Normally, Change Facing requires an enemy to penetrate your model's ZoC. With an Alert, each model may attempt to Change Facing at PH-3. Change Facing is always assumed to be out of LoF which is why it is one of the few skills that doesn't cause any more penalties to stack. Change Facing works almost the same as Dodge but instead of being able to Move, the model spins. A successful Change Facing also evades all possible injuries.
Dodge is applied when a model has LoF but also whenever a model is hit by a Template Weapon. This includes Direct Template Weapons and Impact Template Weapons. For example, if a model is hit by a Shotgun's Impact Template or a Chain Rifle's Direct Template, the model is allowed to Dodge. If a Light Grenade Launcher is used in a Speculative Fire Attack, this is another possibility of Dodging. In most of these cases, the model using Dodge may have a PH-3 penalty because they're unable to see the attacker.
Smoke is the last way to avoid attacks as it is considered a Special Dodge due to Smoke blocking LoF. As a nonlethal targetless weapon, Smoke Grenades do not need to target a model but can target a spot on the ground. Once you've indicated where the Smoke originates, that is where the Smoke thrower measures to for Range Bands. The most common way to make sure your model benefits from +3 Range is to declare "Throwing Smoke at feet." The two dangers of Smoke is if your opponent has MSV2+ because they can see through Smoke Ammunition. The other is Smoke as a Special Dodge does not defend against Template Weapons.
Direct Template Weapons usually trigger ZoC AROs at the least, which could be PH-3 due to out of LoF. Impact Templates, such as from Shotguns or Missile Launchers, use the attacker's values in the FtF against any targets who are also probably lacking LoF to the Attacker and being penalized with PH-3. Deployable Weapons, such as Mines, cause PH-3 to Dodge as well. It should also be noted that any Template Weapon strips the victims of Armour from Cover.
To wrap up: if out of LoF and ZoC without using a Template Weapon, your model is helpless. If they're using a Template Weapon outside of LoF, Dodge PH-3. If they're within LoF, that's straight Dodge unless the weapon was Deployed. Smoke Grenades may be thrown at your model's feet, giving PH+3 for this Special Dodge. This has no effect on Template Weapons. If they're within 2" and LoF, Engage on the Reactive Turn is legal.
Frequently Asked Questions:
Dodge/Engage
Can I Dodge to go Prone?
Yes, you just need to declare during you're going Prone. This only works on the Reactive Turn as you do not gain Movement on the Active Turn.
Let's say after my opponent declares First Half Move 8" with his Motorcycle, I declare ARO Engage which succeeds and they declare Second Half Move 6". What happens?
Your opponent moves his Motorcycle and then places your Engaging model anywhere in base contact with his Motorcycle. Your Engaging model went for quite the ride while holding on for dear life. This could be applied to Super Jumps and Climbing+ as well.
Five different people shoot at my model. If I Dodge and beat them what happens?
Depends. If you are the Active Player, your model is safe. If you are the Reactive Player, you would be safe and gain the benefit of a 2" Move (or more with Kinematika).
My opponent had TO Camouflage, Cover, out of my +3 Range and Surprise Shot so that my BS became 0. Is that a miss? How can I beat that?
If your BS goes below 0, that's an automatic miss. If you Dodged, you would only have -3 to your PH from Surprise Shot and any other modifiers - but probably less than the BS penalty from all of those skills. If you survive, have the model get closer and attack with weight of dice and better BS.
Can I Dodge in ARO if I'm not the target?
Yup, if successful you'd get your Move too.
Can you Dodge a Hacking Attack?
No. Use Reset to stop Hacking Attacks. For information on Hacking, click here.
My opponent is a Hacker and I'm a Heavy Infantry on the Reactive Turn. He Moves to bring within ZoC and LoF, if I declare Reset to avoid the Hack can he Shoot? If I declare Dodge, can he then Hack me?
Unfortunately, you're in a bad situation here because they can declare either Shoot or Hack to counter your ARO declaration - but if you choose to Shoot that would be a FtF.
If you move with Dodge, you can leave your Foxhole. What if you want to Dodge an attack but not leave the Foxhole?
Tell your opponent you're Dodging in place.
Target A Moves, I declare Engage on Target B, Target A Shoots. What happens?
You can't declare Engage on Target B because B did not provoke an ARO, you would need to Dodge which cannot result in an Engaged state. If B did provoke via Link Teams or Coordinated Orders, then you could Engage but only if you beat all the dice.
SmokeUnfortunately, you're in a bad situation here because they can declare either Shoot or Hack to counter your ARO declaration - but if you choose to Shoot that would be a FtF.
If you move with Dodge, you can leave your Foxhole. What if you want to Dodge an attack but not leave the Foxhole?
Tell your opponent you're Dodging in place.
Target A Moves, I declare Engage on Target B, Target A Shoots. What happens?
You can't declare Engage on Target B because B did not provoke an ARO, you would need to Dodge which cannot result in an Engaged state. If B did provoke via Link Teams or Coordinated Orders, then you could Engage but only if you beat all the dice.
My opponent attacks model A but model B has LoF to the attacker. If I throw Smoke, does that make it a FtF on behalf of model A?
No. The Smoke toss would be a Normal Roll to see if they're successful. If they're successful, then future attacks may be hampered by lack of LoF.
I throw Smoke and get a 9 out of PH 14. My opponent Shoots and rolls 4, 10 and 13 out of BS 12. What happens? What if I got 10 or 11?
If you roll a 9 vs his 4, 10 and 13, you would take one hit. His 13 is a failure, your 9 beats his 4 but his 10 beats your 9. You would not lay Smoke down. If you rolled a 10, then you would take no hits because you tied but you wouldn't lay down Smoke either. If you beat all of your opponent's dice, then you lay Smoke down.
Okay, what if I Dodged or Engaged instead of threw Smoke from the example above?
You need to beat all of the dice rolls to gain the benefit of Engage and a 2" Move on a Reactive Turn Dodge.
Smoke Grenades are listed as a Special Dodge but they're also weapons. Link Teams give +1 Burst to weapons. Does this mean they get Burst 2 when throwing Smoke?
Yes.
How tall is a Smoke Template?
Infinite height.
When does Smoke go away?
At the end of every turn.
If Smoke is a Special Dodge due to blocking LoF, what if I toss Smoke out of LoF with my first half and walk into LoF but where the Smoke arrives?
That would be a FtF to see if the Smoke lands.
Since Smoke blocks LoF and models can't Shoot Markers, what happens if I use Smoke as a Marker?
If the Smoke successfully blocks LoF, then your opponent's AROs are cancelled. This doesn't work if a model has Sixth Sense 2.
I throw Smoke and one ARO has MSV2+ and another one doesn't, what happens?
The Smoke throw would be a FtF vs the non-MSV, the MSV2+ would be a Normal Roll.
I throw Smoke vs MSV2+, is that still a Special Dodge?
No. It would be two Normal rolls, so it is possible to lay Smoke but take a Wound from the MSV2 Shooter.
Template Weapons
My model is attacked by multiple Templates, like a Dog Warrior Dual Wielding Chain Rifles. Do I have to pass two Dodge rolls to avoid damage?
No. You make a single Dodge roll and if it is successful, you avoid all the Template Weapons.
I lack LoF when I'm hit with a Template Weapon. Is it -3 or -6 to Change Facing? What if it was a Deployable Weapon like a Mine?
-3 in both cases. They do not stack.
My Dog Warrior uses a Direct Template Weapon Chain Rifle against Target A who Dodges. When we put down the Template, target A is out of Range but Target B is. Does B now get an ARO?
If B is within ZoC, they would get a Change Facing whether or not they were the target but because Target A is out of range of the Dog Warrior's Chain Rifle the shot completely fails.
I Shoot my Missile Launcher at a cluster of models. Target A throws a Smoke Grenade. Is it possible for me to lose the FtF, having Target A place Smoke but then anybody near him fail the FtF vs the Missile Launcher's BS?
Yes.
-3 in both cases. They do not stack.
If B is within ZoC, they would get a Change Facing whether or not they were the target but because Target A is out of range of the Dog Warrior's Chain Rifle the shot completely fails.
I Shoot my Missile Launcher at a cluster of models. Target A throws a Smoke Grenade. Is it possible for me to lose the FtF, having Target A place Smoke but then anybody near him fail the FtF vs the Missile Launcher's BS?
Yes.




In your second last point it seems like you are saying that since you guess badly the direct template weapon won't hit target B or be placed at all. I don't think this is true, the procedure for placing a direct template weapon in the rules does not require you declare a primary target, that is only true for impact template weapons. Under direct template weapons it just says place the template when you declare an attack, there is nothing about choosing a target.
ReplyDeleteThe official word from CB was to let players figure it out for themselves. In which case, I'm making a stand to say that is not how the game is played to sway the opinion. Once CB hands down a ruling, I'll make the change.
DeleteThe reason why I want the primary target to work is due to N2 precedent which holds in a lot of other rulings in the game. With CB not updating HS+Paradiso, they've made precedent for "If we haven't changed that rule, you go with the legacy ruling." N2 you couldn't do this, so I'm going with that. It also feels really game-y which isn't what Infinity is about.
The second is that it adds inconsistency. What if Target B is a Marker? You can't target it but now you can? It seems odd that you can do this. This also means if you fire in ARO, you get to React against a model that didn't give you a Reaction. If A is the one who triggered the ARO, you shoot a weapon but fail to hit them but can hit B, why would you let that stand?
I wouldn't, so I'm taking a stand now. If this gets overturned, I'll play it the other way but until they fix this little rules problem, I'm going with the legacy ruling.
I really don't like the N2 precedent thing. They came out with a new version of the core rules that is the rules now you can't go back and say well that's how it was in a previous edition. I think it was a very stupid idea for them not to put the important rules from the other two books in but that is life.
DeleteIn ARO maybe it's different, but in your example target B would presumably be within 8" so had an ARO regardless, and you would just be punishing a player for not realizing that he could choose to target the close one and maybe clip both. I guess it is heading down to a mater of play style where you have some people that want a crazy tight game that always 100% follows the rules, and some people want to just play a looser casual thing.
Anyways your article made me go back and read parts of the rules again and understand some things a bit more so that is good. I am still finding stuff I am doing wrong in Flames of War sometimes and have played hundreds of games of that probably.
It seems though that in that example is seems rather clear what the intention is. The rulebook makes a point to say that under Impact Template Weapons that you have to declare a main valid target. But under Direct Template Weapons is makes no such mention. Since you actually don't have to declare a main target, you don't have to see if someone was in range or not to put the template down. The template just goes down and then you determine who's affected and who gets AROs from it's placing. (Pg 36)
DeleteIt even says under Direct Templates to put the template down as soon as you declare the attack and then you check who's affected.
And it doesn't really seem that gamey at all. Direct templates arn't aimed and arn't used with precision. It's much like using a Flamethrower in Vietnam, you have a rough idea where the enemy might be so you spray them down with flames instead of trying to unload a bunch of bullets. Against a camo marker you can't target them with a regular BS attack but you can spray them down with Chain Rifles and Flamethrowers.
The most complex interaction would be an Impersonation Marker, but Pg 25 already makes mention to say that you can't attack Friendly or Neutral troopers, and if an invalid target is under the template then the entire template is null. In that scenario the simplest way to handle Impersonation would be to declare the template invalid as if the Impersonation Marker was a Neutral Trooper. This is also supported by PG 175 under Camo as it specifically mentions they can be attacked by Intuitive Attack, but Impersonation just flat out says you can't declare any attacks against them.
Atleast from what I can read, the rules seem to support the notion that the template would still go down and target B would be affected by the template. The key difference is that to shoot the Chain Rifle, you don't have to declare target A as your main target. You can declare target A as the target of which you'll aim the template at but you don't fail the shot by attempting to put the template down.
Also great read! Keep up the great work. I'm really enjoying reading these articles ^,^
Pg 35 for the can't attack Friendly or Neutral*
DeleteAnd Pg 179 for Impersonation*
Just like to site my sources :)
Direct Template Weapons are not Targetless, therefore they must have a Target. The Order of Operations in Infinity is: Spend Order, Declare First Half, Check AROs, Declare Second Half, Check AROs, Measure, Roll Dice, Resolve Order. Within the declarations of halves, if your Skill requires a Target then they must be stated so they may be measured later in that Order sequence. If you don't have a legal Target, your model Idles.
DeleteInfinity is not about gaming the game, it's more about outplaying your opponent. See Penemue's Power Gaming in Infinity.
CB could've circumvented all of this with a larger beta test of N3 like Warmachine did for Mk2 but unfortunately, they didn't. And while I also don't like CB using precedents, they opened that with the decision to exclude HS/CP with only minor updates with "use previous rules and FAQs except in our updates" which leaves us with all the baggage of N2 jurisprudence.
I strongly disagree with "Direct Template Weapons are targetless." Each and every weapon in the game must have a target, with the -exception- of weapons that include the targetless proviso in their descriptions. I believe that amounts to Smoke and...maybe one or two other types of Grenades. That's it. The special proviso for "you don't need a target" doesn't extend to any other weapon, and that's why I'd argue (strongly, and not using the logic of cross-version inheritance) that Direct Template Weapons need targets.
DeleteThanks for the post - I'm sending this out to all of my Wed night players. Great post for new players, answers lots of common/uncommon questions and establishes a good mindset for players when it comes to the lethality of the game. Bravo Zulu.
ReplyDeleteThank you.
DeleteI was looking into how people got into CKP and I saw that people were googling rules questions. It's what inspired me to add a FAQ section.